Speaker 1: 0:00

All right, folks. Today is the day Unbound the Beverly Jenkins edition or the BJ edition.

Speaker 2: 0:07

Oh, I just got a call from HR. Turns out we cannot say that this is not the BJ edition.

Speaker 1: 0:13

Right, right, sorry, sorry, sorry. Welcome to Unbound, the podcast that explores the intersection of pop culture and the steamy world of romance literature. Join us as we celebrate the voices and stories often left in the shadows and unravel the threads of joy, passion and heartache that keep us all coming back to the page and the screen. Hey y'all, welcome to Unbound. In our how the West Was Won series, we're examining the West and romance. I'm Madera Najera. I write romance novels with hot and horny Latin people.

Speaker 2: 0:52

And I'm Nikki Payne, and I write steamy romance based on the books you were forced to read in high school. And today we are riding side saddle with none other than Miss Bell, beverly Jenkins. We're talking about two of Jenkins' most iconic works, topaz and Forbidden. Set against the wild and steamy backdrop of historical Nevada and the bustling life of Virginia City, aka country Wakanda. More on this later. These stories mix romance with justice, identity and the quest for just a damn place to pee on the trail.

Speaker 1: 1:26

What was?

Speaker 2: 1:27

that again. Okay, here's my theory.

Speaker 1: 1:33

I'm convinced these people were peeing on themselves on the trail.

Speaker 2: 1:35

Adriana, Okay, you're not wrong, it's just too long. How are you going to stop all those wagons, all those oxen? I don't know who drives trails, oxen.

Speaker 1: 1:44

You can't stop a bunch of oxen to pee, the oxen won't be stopped. So let's settle up and start this journey with Act One, where we set the scene in Jenkins' vividly drawn world. From the bustling streets of Chicago to the dusty roads leading to Oklahoma, jenkins' characters trek a journey to black safety, each with a purpose and a story that demands to be told.

Speaker 2: 2:06

I have a theory for the Jenkinsverse, and it's Wakanda, but with boots and spurs, tell me more please.

Speaker 2: 2:14

Okay, hear me out. Okay, let's talk about it. So this may not be connected, but just let me cook, okay. Loitering laws they have a long and contentious history in the United States. So when you loiter, you're like hanging out in places that you shouldn't be, and loitering laws in the US date back to an era following the Civil War. This is called Reconstruction. So during Reconstruction, many southern states enacted black codesodes laws that restricted the freedoms of newly freed African Americans. Loitering laws were part of these codes. They were ostensibly designed to maintain public order, but were actually used to control and limit the movement of Black folk. These laws made it illegal for individuals to appear in public places without a clear purpose, and police could use these laws to harass, wrangle up and arrest people who are just simply gathering publicly.

Speaker 1: 3:10

It's like illegal divide so in a reverie jenkins book where, for instance, the heroine and forbidden immediately joins a group of black folks who are organizing to further the cause of the race. Um, even pushing Black men to run for office, she is subverting these white supremacist laws.

Speaker 2: 3:28

Exactly. These laws, particularly like the Lord and Cause, were vague, broadly interpreted and used as tools for social control, to shape public space while also reinforcing racial discrimination and segregation. So when Jenkins crafts her Virginia City or Oklahoma, they represent a place for the Black body to be at rest or even fall in love.

Speaker 1: 3:54

All right, let's get into it. When you think of Westerns, you might imagine dusty towns, saloons, lone cowboys, some chaps, some spurs. But Jenkins gives us all that and more. Her characters are actively building the worlds they want to live in, like Dixon Wildhorse, the hero from Topaz, whose authority as a marshal challenges the traditional white narratives of law enforcement, or Kate Love, who is a truth teller, sometimes at the cost of her own safety.

Speaker 2: 4:25

Just to set the scene for you, we're going to recap Topaz and Forbidden quickly. First, let's start with Topaz. It starts with Kate Love. She's an ambitious reporter on the trail of a swindler who's been preying on elderly Blacks. But when her investigation leads her into danger, she is snatched by Dick's Wild Horse. Come on with the name sis A Black Seminole marshal from Oklahoma's Native American country. Kate has no choice but to flee with this dark and daring knight her father has sent to rescue her, Despite those warm, simmering fires that Dix's bronze-muscled embrace ignites.

Speaker 1: 5:00

Um, you had me at bronze-muscled embrace. Yeah, yeah, so she's determined to hold on to her independence. Um, you had me at bronze muscle embrace, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2: 5:06

So she's determined to hold on to her independence, and she challenges him at every turn. Yet even as their battle of wills intensifies, the heat of their passion blazes with unmatched fury. Ooh, ooh Not that back copy A wildfire of love that can only be answered by the sweet ecstasy of surrender. Okay, ms Beth, are you not entertained? Are you not entertained? Are you not entertained? Okay, next forbidden Ryan Fontaine I just love this name Is building the successful life he's always dreamed of, one that depends upon him passing for white.

Speaker 2: 5:44

But for the first time in years, he wishes he could step out from behind that facade. The reason Edie Carmichael, the young woman he rescued in the desert. Outspoken, defiant, beautiful Edie tempts Ryan in ways that could cost him everything, and the price seems worth paying. Eddie owes her life to Ryan, but she won't risk her heart for him. As soon as she's saved enough money from her cooking, she'll leave this Nevada town and move to California. No matter how handsome he is, no matter how fiery the heat between them, ryan will never be hers. Giving in for just one night might quench this longing, or it might ignite an affair as reckless and irresistible as it is forbidden. What a time to be the states.

Speaker 1: 6:30

What a time. The states Watch the master work. Okay, all right, let's get into it. Jenkins West is a stage for transformation. Let's talk of Edie, for example. Edie leaves her life in Colorado which, by the way, if you want to know where Black people were thriving in the 19th century, please read all of Beverly Jenkins' oeuvre and she was headed to San Francisco and ends up trusting the wrong person, gets robbed and left for dead in the desert. What a setup. And then it's the perfect allegory of going into the West, literally like you are depending on who you trust, and then the West strips you bare, confronting you with who you really are.

Speaker 1: 7:14

There is a very specific type of person that can make it in this kind of environment. Edie Carmichael, our heroine, is on her Princess Tiana shit. Virginia City wasn't her dream dream. It was a flyover or rollover city, a dot on the map, but because edie is eating, she transforms the promise of that place into a future. And of course, let's talk about ryan fontaine, my number one book boyfriend, a black man who has been safely living as a white man with the belief that being white ultimately is a way to help the black people in his community. But Edie and this place there and allows him to fully step up into his true self.

Speaker 2: 7:58

I hear that. I hear that so, like Virginia, city is a place that allows both of them to actually step into their true self. But this trail is definitely testing Kate and Topaz. So, like we said again, topaz starts in the big city with a fake marriage, a swindle in Chicago. The setup is so good it could have stayed in Chicago. He drags her from the wedding. There's a short stay in a brothel, for some reason, and Kate is from the city. There's a short stay in a brothel for some reason and Kate is was from the city and she's always seeking truth. But she was tough and like. She knew that about herself. But there's a sense of like being tested physically Right.

Speaker 2: 8:35

The trail made Kate see what she was truly made of. In all those instances where she felt like she couldn't go another day. She thought about those women on the trail. She thought about what she and Dixon had to do and she found more community on that trail with the women that she had in Chicago. And that's what I love about the West. And what I love particularly about what Beverly Jenkins is doing with the West is that the setting itself is a character forming device and it forces these characters to evolve into place. Love that about that work. So this act sets our stage. Y'all literally Stay with us as we ride deeper.

Speaker 1: 9:16

Not riding deeper.

Speaker 2: 9:18

I meant into the heart of Jenkins, reimagined West. Why is everything sexy?

Speaker 1: 9:22

This is Unbound, and we're just getting started. Keep your hats on. Act two is coming up next.

Speaker 2: 9:32

Welcome back to Unbound. In act one, we set the stage with Beverly Jenkins' vivid settings, from the bustling energy of Chicago to the untamed promise of Oklahoma and Virginia City. Now, in act two, we're diving deep into the hearts and souls of Jenkins' protagonists.

Speaker 1: 9:47

All right, so let's get a little bit further into Dixon Wildhorse, a Black Seminole Marshal whose presence upends the traditional portrayal of lawmen in Western genres. Dixon is a protector of the peace. He's a guardian of justice, especially for the most vulnerable, and his name is Dix, which you know does a lot of heavy lifting. His strength isn't just in his physical power, but it is in his moral resilience and his refusal to conform to the oppressive norms of his time. For Dixon, it's about embodying authority without losing his essence. The way that Beverly Jenkins describes what seeing dicks naked does for Kate should be studied. I mean, I had to really think about. Other times I'd read a dark-skinned Black man described with such sultriness and such electricity Like he truly is the embodiment of Black beauty. The way that Kate thinks about his body, how he looks, how his skin glows, glistens, it's like she's thinking about it like a perfect piece of art, and that in and of itself is part of what Beverly Jenkins does in terms of upending themes and beauty standards, even in romance.

Speaker 2: 11:14

You know what I'm thinking about, right, that painting that's in everybody's auntie's house, that's maybe in her bedroom, and it's like the guy kneeling at the woman's feet. And it's like this black body, or the sexy one that she liked on Facebook and sent to you. That that photo.

Speaker 1: 11:30

That's him. That's Nixon, not Nixon that's him. That's Dixon yeah, oh.

Speaker 2: 11:37

And then there's Ron Fontaine, or Pretty Ricky's what they call him, a man living between two worlds. I imagine this man looking like Chico DeBarge, years old. He is everybody's 1980s light-skinned dream. But to the outside world, ryan is a respected figure in a predominantly white society. But beneath that facade is a truth that only he knows, and his journey is actually about survival and the quest for authenticity. So can I say this? This is can I just say it? Say it Passing's got a bad rap. Okay, it's got a bad rap. Okay.

Speaker 2: 12:15

We've all seen Imitation of Life. I cried, you cried. It was a terrible movie. But in a world where your humanity, your quality of life, your freedom is determined by something so arbitrary as the looseness of your curl pattern or the cut of your nose, how many of us would slip and go into the front of a store or make such similar choices if we had the opportunity to suddenly be treated like a human, who wouldn't jump to take it? I don't know. I think we should be easy on those folks who chose humanity. It's a hard decision, but the times were terrible and the stakes were so high. And that's what I love about Ryan's story is that he challenges us to consider what it actually means to live a lie in pursuit of peace, and whether true power can ever come from denial of self.

Speaker 1: 13:13

And craft-wise, because this is a romance novel. Giving him the choice to pass and giving us the context and the stakes that were there for him really does make an important difference in terms of his arc. Ryan was using his power as a white man to do things for his community, so Beverly Jenkins really does a masterful job of showing the tremendous stakes of passing at a time like Reconstruction, when having a white man of influence on our side could have made a world of difference. And that's the choice Ryan is faced with for Edie.

Speaker 2: 13:51

It's true, tough choices. Speaking of Edie, we cannot forget about our gulls.

Speaker 1: 13:56

Edie Carmichael is literally what happens when you have a dream and you are willing to see it through, no matter how it looks. Hashtag grow where you're planted. Her journey west is fraught with dangers, but her resolve never wavers. Edie's not looking for a hero to save her. She's saving herself and forging her path to independence. Her relationship with Brian is filled with romantic tension.

Speaker 1: 14:23

This little queen knows that the steamy white man is dangerous business, but the chemistry is so palpable and every time she calls her little queen it's like what is the girl supposed to do? A word on black and brown heroines, though. It is such a difficult balance act because we want softness, but we are also in a world that requires tenaciousness and fortitude, and that's where Jenkins heroes really excel, because that they instinctively want to make the world softer for their women. They are the perfect lovers for a black woman, from Ryan wanting her in beautiful dresses, to dicks making sure he gets a decadent bath and everything that she needs once they arrive home in oklahoma. These men are the blueprint for the perfect lover for a woman who is living in the world in a black body and, as I said before, let's get into kate.

Speaker 2: 15:28

This is kate from topaz. She's a newspaper reporter and she's currently. When we meet kate, she's deep undercover. Right, she's working on a story about a corrupt swindler. But she gets real very quick. Her cover is blown and she's held prisoner by rupert samuel. There, there's never a good Rupert. Just, I don't know how you can make Rupert sound like a hero. What I love about Kate is that she's not going to just lay down and let the West consume her See our earlier theory about the West being a vagina. She's going to get all in there, right, massage change and ultimately become a force that reshapes it. For example, when they're riding in that wagon, there's a wagon full of women. Um, that they are taking to safety when those women decide not to give up any coochie until things start looking better for them, so until they start getting their rights. This is kate and the women shaping the West and defining how they want to be in this world, even as they are allowing themselves to be reinvented. It is Renaissance, but also they are renaissancing. Ok, not that now, amber.

Speaker 1: 16:34

Not the rena rena, rena renaissance.

Speaker 1: 16:37

Ah you have to get saved. I challenge any sentient human being to sit with a straight face when Nikki Payne says the word coochie and you're looking at her. Okay, I am doing. This is hard work, folks. So yeah, I mean, come on. Jenkins characters have it all great courage, big dicks and the audacity. They navigate a landscape that's traditionally been hostile to their very existence. Through these characters, jenkins reclaims peace and autonomy, presenting a world where black men and women are not just surviving but thriving right on, right on.

Speaker 2: 17:21

so we're wrapping up this act, but let's remember Jenkins' characters aren't like fighting the elements or just the unknown. I think what makes this story and her stories black is that these characters are pressing against the constraints of like, of history, in a world that wants them gone, eradicated, particularly in post-Reconstruction era. And through all of that they find love and even a deeper sense of self. Stick with us as we ride into Act 3. We'll explore Jenkins' broader implications for our understanding of history, race and the enduring legacy of the Western genre. This is Unbound, don't go nowhere.

Speaker 1: 18:12

y'all, y'all guess who we got, guess who we schmoozed, guess who we bribed to talk to us today.

Speaker 2: 18:14

The icon, the legend mother, your mother, my mother, mother of us all, mother of dragons.

Speaker 1: 18:24

The one and only Beverly Jenkins is here to speak with us today about two of her historical romance masterpieces Topaz and Forbidden. Now, before we start, we have to give Mother a bio moment, so let me just quickly read her bio. Beverly Jenkins is a USA Today bestselling author and nation's premier writer of African-American historical fiction. According to the African-American Book Club. American Book Club, she specializes in 19th century African American life and has over 60 published novels to date. She has received numerous awards, including the RWA Nora Roberts Lifetime Achievement Award, and has been nominated for the NAACP Image Award. She is an institution inimitable, our absolute favorite.

Speaker 2: 19:32

Beverly Jenkins.

Speaker 3: 19:36

Really came from a fan letter. Back then it was before email, and my sister I don't remember who she was, I still got all my fan letters in the basement in a box. She said, miss Bev, you did, you know it must be book four. She said you did three serious books. You did Night Song and you did Vivid and you did Indigo. She said, can you write a comedy? And I was like, hmm, you know, and even when your publishers ask you stuff, can you write. You never say no. So if your publisher ever asks if you can write whatever, always say yes. Even if you don't have nothing in the drawer, say yes. So I was like, okay, and you know, and I grew up at a time, you know, in the 60s, when everything on tv was basically black and white and everything black and white was a western yeah you know John Wayne.

Speaker 3: 20:42

You know I told this story about my grandfather. I probably have seen every John Wayne movie ever made because he was such a big. I don't know if he was a John Wayne fan or if he was just a Western fan, but when you went to see my grandmother you didn't get to control. Well, you were the remote but you didn't get to control the channels. You know you changed that to channel seven. You know you were the remote and you didn't get to pick. So when we wanted to stay up late we went to visit her because she didn't live too far from us, me and my two, the two sisters we're stair steps. There's seven of us in 13 years. So it's me and my two sisters are the top three.

Speaker 3: 21:24

So when we would see Grandma you know we want to stay up late you had to watch John Wayne. So, and he would sometimes say you know, that's the story of a black man and we would be like tell me what you mean. Okay, the movie. He would say that some of the incidences were based on. You know Black historical figures. That's, part of his people were from Texas and one in particular, the Searchers. It's about a young woman or a young kid. It's been a long time.

Speaker 1: 22:02

A young woman gets kidnapped.

Speaker 3: 22:03

Yeah, get kidnapped. I think it's a young woman or a young kid.

Speaker 1: 22:02

It's been a long time A young woman gets kidnapped. Yeah, get kidnapped.

Speaker 3: 22:05

And John Wayne plays I think I don't remember plays the person who's the scout, who's looking leading the party. Well, that man, now come to find out, was a black man. You can look it up. So I didn't know all of this until later and I started doing the research for my stuff and I was like, damn, my granddaddy wasn't right. Um, in one of the John Wayne um movies, um, jim Beckworth, who Beckworth passes named after in Colorado or California, one of them, sea States. Um, cause you know I'm old, this is going to be my excuse Big time frontier guy. Like I said, beckwith Pass is named after him. He was the scout. He claimed to be a Native American chief. In the John Wayne movie he was a red-haired Irishman. Now, you know, you look at real stuff. You know this guy was a black guy, ebony skin. You know the whole shot. So what Granddaddy was telling us when I was like seven or eight years old, when it came to be the truth, he knew it was the truth. He was just like, yeah, right. So when I did Topaz, I used all of that to sort of put the story together.

Speaker 3: 23:44

And also there was a great movie back then called Westward the Women. It starred Marjorie Maine and Danielle Darcio or something like him, some French girl and Robert Taylor and it was about a bunch of mail-order rides going west and how the guy had tobert taylor was the wagon master, I think, um, and he had to teach him how to. You know how to drive the wagons and how to take care of the horses and all of that. So it was one of the movies that you know. We had a guy in detroit, bill kennedy movies. At one o'clock and during the summer, when you know it was not any school and it's high to sell outside, you stay home and you watch bill kennedy and he showed all these old movies. One o'clock and during the summer, when you know it was not any school and it's hot as hell outside, you stay home and you watch bill kennedy and he showed all these old movies. Yeah, so that was one of the movies that he showed, you know, all the time, and so me and my sisters are watching and we love the movie. So basically, um, topaz is based on that. Now, there was no dixon wild horse, it was just robert taylor.

Speaker 3: 24:46

Um, but the, the, the feel and the, the theme and all of that of the story is sort of based on that and I don't know how well the story holds up these days. It's been, you know, 40 years since I've seen it. Yeah, um, but yeah, what's with the women? So put all of that together and I'm a pantser. So, organically, you know, you let the characters and the story sort of guide you and next thing, we know, oh, and then you know, the point is just a slow hand. So you know, then you had Dixon Wild Horse and I'm all about the history and I think that was my first deep dive into the Black Seminoles too.

Speaker 3: 25:37

So you know, and I try not to, you know, beach over the head with it and let my characters give them that background so that you know, you know what's going on. But it's not an info dump. So I gave him that Black Seminole history so I could do that history. And Kate is sort of based on some things with Marianne Shadd, who was an abolitionist during the abolition era and she was the first woman of color on North America to have a newspaper. And there's an incident with Kate where she has to sign her name as a man and that actually happened with Mary Ann Shad because she didn't think that you know the men of the movement would respect her or, you know, acknowledge her power and all that. And of course when they found out they did and I treated her really bad. So a lot of stuff went into that.

Speaker 1: 26:47

And then out came that story Her dad, I was going to ask about her dad, because he's definitely one of the comedic.

Speaker 3: 26:58

Yeah, he's based on Ben Hodges. Ben Hodges was a con man and the whole incident with him selling Dix's cows a con man and the whole incident with him selling Dix's cows Dix's cows Ben Hodges actually did that to some greenhorn from Europe Because back then you had a lot of the peerage, were coming over and buying ranches and all of that. And the story goes that if Ben said it was raining, you better get up and go out and go to the window and look. And they buried him in Boot Hill. They said so that a lot of gunfighters could keep an eye on him. So all of this you know just from reading the history and stuff. None of these are in the movies, but just from reading the history. And I used mostly RT Burton's Red Black and Deadly. He is a fantastic historian, black historian. He's a Chicago historian. He's also a musician, great musician. He's in Chicago Historian, he's also a musician, great musician.

Speaker 2: 28:18

So I used his book and then I used William Catt's the Black West for most of the research for those two that story. So my question is why infuse it with real history? This was a fantastic story even without those touches.

Speaker 3: 28:32

I couldn't have put it together without the history. I'm all about what I call edutainment. Nobody knew about the Black Seminoles. It was also my tribute to the black newspapers of the 19th century, of which there were hundreds that nobody knows about. So it's sort of my mission, my gospel, my good news, you know.

Speaker 3: 29:02

Just pretty Proving your great career yeah and my mama too, because I tell people she was black before it was fashionable. So Tell me what that means before it was fashionable. My mama, okay, in the 50s and the 60s, you know you had this big upsurge of being black, you know, with the civil rights movement and all that. But my mother knew she was black before then. She knew the history.

Speaker 3: 29:36

Her grandfather, which would be my great-grandfather, was Muslim from Kentucky, it's what they called it. They didn't call them Muslims back then, they called them Mohammedans back then. And he had lived in Nepal. He lived in Pakistan. He was a regular black man, not a black Muslim, because there were no black Muslims back then. Everybody was Muslim, just like they're supposed to be. But he lived in Pakistan, he lived in Nepal, he did his Hajj in Medina, he did his Hajj at Mecca and I remember I was in college and Mama had his letters and Mama was probably the only you know, because you weren't supposed to have women in your quarters and he lived upstairs in my grandmother's house and my mom he would let her come up and they would, you know, talk and stuff.

Speaker 3: 30:35

And she got his Koran after he died and all that. But what was I going to say, oh, she got his letters. And I was in college and she said, well, I got Papa's letters, we're holding Papa. And I said, well, can I have them? And she said, yeah, sure, come get them. You know, and I'm looking for, you know, insight and you know stuff and you know all of that, right, and they got these great stamps on them, you know from Nepal and all that. Every letter said send me my pension check, because when he was in the States he worked for Ford Motor Company. He also worked for the railroad. So no deep insight, just you know send me my damn money you know, that's it so I still have those letters, too in my basement somewhere.

Speaker 3: 31:35

So but yeah, that's what I meant by you know, and she, she collected. Um, do you know what the black book is that Toni Morrison published in the 70s? It's like a scrapbook of everything that was. I mean, it's got old stuff, it's got patents. My mama collected that kind of stuff from black people and she had it for a long time and then she came home one day and daddy had burned it up. Wow, because he said, hey, we need it to stay warm. And she was like, no, you didn't, because, as seven kids, you got more mouths and you got more bills and you got money. But I wish and.

Speaker 3: 32:31

I saw it a couple times when I was little. I mean, it was handbills from shows with Billy Eckstein and all the Harlem greats and all of that. But and she always told us you know, don't let these people tell you you are not worthy. You know, all y'all gonna grow up and be somebody, you know. And basically I mean we didn't be nobody but ourselves. You know, we knew our worth and our value. So you had this mother, who our worth and our and our value.

Speaker 2: 33:08

So you had this mother. Who was this just collector? Of the Black experience this mother who had seen the world outside of Detroit, this granddaddy who told the truth and saw the truth.

Speaker 1: 33:24

There was no other thing for you to be but an amazing story Archiving.

Speaker 3: 33:27

Yeah, archive it. So you know, and I archive it, I guess, through my stories. I never thought about it like that, absolutely. Thank you, nikki, I'm here all day, I love that.

Speaker 3: 33:37

But yeah, and she would talk about you know, and I've told this story too before. She would talk about going to the Detroit Public Library Because she went to Miller, which was the black high school in Detroit, and in Detroit you could use the library if you were black, but you couldn't take the books home. Now in the South there were lots of libraries where you couldn't even go in if you were black. So she said she'd go to the library on a Saturday and she'd be there for hours just sitting and reading and you had to ask for the black books because they were not showed them with the regular collection. They were behind the desk and you had to ask for them. So she was like okay, and and you know, and and she read to us, you know, until we could read for ourselves.

Speaker 3: 34:36

And I told the story you know, it's her fault and I'm a, I'm a reader and a writer, because her and daddy bought me, you know, cloth books I'm the oldest and she would say eat them, work, because I would eat the books, eat the pages, and she would say eat those words, baby, eat those words. So, so, yeah, um, everybody in my family, um, were book people. Yeah, and when they died, I got got their books. That's how I discovered Shakespeare. My Aunt, cecilia, my daddy's sister, and they all were college educated, unlike my mom and them, which were in Detroit. My dad's from Palatka, florida. He got his degree at Savannah State.

Speaker 3: 35:24

But, yeah, when Cecilia died, you know this big, old, thick, blue book, I remember it. I'm like what the hell is this? It was a complete volume of Shakespeare. I was 12, you know. So after I figured out what these were, who speaks like this? Right After I figured that out, you know, that's when I discovered how much I love Shakespeare. Do you have a favorite play? Taming of the Shrew and Midsummer Night's Dream? I swear somebody changed the ending for Taming of the Shrew because the ending is just fucked up. I don't know who wrote that, but Midsummer Night's Dream will make you laugh out loud it was so funny.

Speaker 3: 36:08

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 36:08

Yeah, yeah, I love that I have a romance with the classics as well, also at a young age. I just got into.

Speaker 1: 36:20

Jane.

Speaker 2: 36:20

Austen and got into the Bronte sisters and I thought that there was no better stories to tell and I never read those.

Speaker 3: 36:30

Never read those, yeah, but you know they think that. You know we as women of color aren't into that kind of stuff. I don't know what they think we're supposed to grow in every reading. But, um, we read the gamut.

Speaker 2: 36:49

We're not a hive mentality, so uh, exactly right, yeah I mean, honestly speaking, of like, not a hive mentality, when we now I'm thinking about ryan fontaine, or you know, pretty Ricky.

Speaker 3: 37:09

Wait till I tell Katrina that, because she's a forbidden expert, go ahead.

Speaker 2: 37:16

Yeah, like when we think about someone who is going about what he thinks is a good cause. Using these you know ways and means that people would not normally today see as good. Like you think of books like Nella Larson or any of these books about passing, those individuals are imitation of life right. Those individuals are seen as tragic right or as individuals only bound to you know their own death.

Speaker 3: 37:47

They always killed themselves or injured themselves. And I, you know, as an English major, when I went to class, I wanted to turn that stereotype on its head. You know, I wanted to give him a mission, you know, it's like, it's like hiding in place, you know, yeah, and Katrina says that and it, you know, it was just for me. It was very, very deep for her, but then she's a professor, she's supposed to be deep. She said what's her name? Um, eddie, eddie, yes, lord eddie, let ryan come home to his blackness. Yeah, and I thought that was just the most profound thing I have ever heard, because you know that was I didn't think about it that way, but it is she. Let him come home to his blackness. Um, yeah, but she was like no, no, get away from me, you know.

Speaker 1: 39:02

so yeah yeah, I mean I of again, and that's why I've always said that your books are like the best American history, because you can read those narratives that can be so painful and know that there's a happy ending that's coming, so that you can like trust that you can read about this experiences, especially like thinking about me when I was, uh, learning about american history. Reading about the reconstruction usually is very hard yeah because it's so.

Speaker 1: 39:40

It was such a. It's so frustrating to read how much was done and how much, how quickly it was all taken apart.

Speaker 3: 39:50

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 39:51

And and those that community was so robust, right Like like all that they were trying to do to influence someone, and Ryan was like an operator in that world. So it may it gave him that character such nobility.

Speaker 3: 40:13

Yeah, yeah, because you know, when you read the quote-unquote classics, you know there's always, like Nikki said, that tragic mulatto. I hated those stories. It's like didn't anybody do anything else, but there had to have been some who did. Yeah, you know Right.

Speaker 2: 40:41

So and my thing is like, even if it wasn't, even if it wasn't heroic, right, Even if somebody just decided that I'm going to be treated like a human today, I'm going to walk in the front door and get my ice cream and walk away. Right, even if there's nothing heroic in that like, just just like a moment to think about how how seductive that was.

Speaker 1: 41:09

That's exactly the word I was thinking how seductive the process of just being a human being would have been at that time, being a human in the world.

Speaker 2: 41:17

Yeah, just walking right in the front and just saying I'd like a yeah of this getting service and, yeah, harnessing power and like holding power yeah um, yeah yeah, and I'm sure that there were tons of people who did do that, you know, regardless of why they were passing.

Speaker 3: 41:35

You know, to be able to go into into a store. You know, one of the we took a, the Madiba group. We took a trip to um, new Orleans. We've done New Orleans a couple times, three, four times, and one of the historians said that the reason that the women had to wear their chignons, the scarves on their head, because the light-skinned black women were going into shops and being waited on Gotcha and the store owners did not know that they were serving black women. So that's when the Tinian laws started being told, being enforced, so that they could tell the difference, so they wouldn't have to serve them with a smile or, in some cases, serve them at all. So that's where the Tinian laws came from.

Speaker 2: 42:30

But, yeah, Look, I tell you, white supremacists know the drugs.

Speaker 3: 42:37

And one of the other historians told us about some of the white women who had slaves hadn't been in a kitchen in you know three generations yeah, yeah and after the war they couldn't feed their kids because they know how to cook. So a lot of the black women made quite a bit of money not cooking for them, but teaching them how to cook oh my gosh, this explains so much like raisins and potatoes and pimento cheese.

Speaker 1: 43:14

I mean not that I don't enjoy pimento cheese, but you've got to really be struggling to be like let me just put this grated cheese together with some other cheese and some some peppers no, seasoning nothing it explains so much. It explains so much. Yeah, that explains.

Speaker 3: 43:34

And that's where hot sauce came from. Well, it's a whole different story, but that's the only thing he had in his fields were the peppers after the war and McHenry. But then that's how I found rind Through a hot sauce bottle okay, let's go back and start from the beginning.

Speaker 1: 43:54

Okay, let's roll the deck.

Speaker 2: 43:56

Now tell me what ryan has to do with. Okay, you have a hot sauce in my bag right now.

Speaker 1: 44:04

Yeah, I have a bottle of Liquoristol on my desk.

Speaker 3: 44:06

Okay, all right. Here's the story. A group of archaeologists were investigating. I got so many places in my mind, the city that Ryan is in, silver City, nevada.

Speaker 1: 44:21

Yes.

Speaker 3: 44:22

Okay, and there had been a fire at one time there, so they were investigating below the fire level to see what was there. Well, they found a hot sauce bottle and this is documented. I gave you the site in the book at the end of the book. Now we all know whether you the site in the book At the end of the book. Now we all know, whether stereotypes or not, if there's a hot sauce bottle, there's some black folks involved.

Speaker 3: 44:56

Come on sis, we know, and sure enough, there was a tavern or saloon or bar owned by this black guy and it was the best saloon in the city. It had cutting edge lighting. It had cutting edge because they had those gas lamps. So cutting edge, you know air whatever's. They found imported gin Because they had those gas lamps. So cutting edge, you know air whatevers. They found imported gin. They found, you know just valuable, priceless plates and glassware and stuff.

Speaker 3: 45:43

And damn if, yeah, there was the boston saloon and when I saw it I said, okay, this is where ryan is, because my ryan whiners which is what I called him, yes, had been on me for because what through the story came out in what 97 or 98 or whatever, and they, they have been. Well, whatever happened to Ryan, I don't know. I don't know where he is. I don't know where he is. Stop asking me, them and the people wanting two shaft story. I started y'all need to start a support group. So they had a two shaft support group for a while. So when I read that I was like that's where Ryan is. This Salone.

Speaker 2: 46:35

I'm just imagining ancient photos of catfish with that inexplicable piece of white bread, you know.

Speaker 3: 46:44

I think I still have the link in my hard drive somewhere. I'll have the link in my on my hard drive somewhere. I'll have to send that to you, but but yeah, and they found out who owned it and it was a black man, like I said, and the best place in the city, and then, you know, and the white patrons would not patronize it because he was letting black people in there, right, so, um, but obviously it was.

Speaker 3: 47:14

It was a pretty snazzy and well-known place and, like I said, I found it because of a hot sauce bottle hot sauce bottle, a hot sauce bottle, because they sent the hot sauce bottle to the McHenry factory in Louisiana and they said this is one of ours, but we don't even have a record for this. This is before we started keeping records. Wow, wow so. Have you ever gone on a dig? No, I haven't gone on a dig. Have you ever gone on a dig? No, I haven't gone on a dig.

Speaker 2: 47:49

I've gone on one dig and we found nothing but weird shards that you know. If I found a hot sauce bottle, I would literally retire. I'm like, well, I did it, I know. I know.

Speaker 3: 48:02

History solved.

Speaker 1: 48:03

Yeah, yes, we've reached the beginning.

Speaker 3: 48:07

Like this is where it all started. This is where it all started. This is where it all began. Right here, the Big Bang itself.

Speaker 2: 48:14

This is my Big Bang.

Speaker 3: 48:16

I love it.

Speaker 1: 48:20

We wanted to ask you too, because so much of your work is the West right, and you've given us so many interesting heroines, of course, but the hero too right, and we've talked about the Western and talk about this, the man from the West, the cowboy. So we wanted to know, when you think of a cowboy, what comes to mind?

Speaker 3: 48:47

You know, and I have to base this on I thought about your question. I had to base this on how I grew up and what I saw on screen. I think of the men I created because everybody else is white.

Speaker 1: 49:06

Yes.

Speaker 3: 49:07

So Dixon Wildhorse and Jackson Blake and Ryan's not really a cowboy, but he's a Western man. I mean, I grew up at a time when there were what over 100, I don't know if I said that 100 Westerns right. Yeah. There were what over a hundred. I don't know if I said that a hundred westerns right. Yeah, all of them white men, except for barbara stanwick and big valley, which is sort of what the destiny series is, the foundation for that. But chuck connors, big six foot strapping white guy, blonde blue eyes, was a single parent dad. In a western they cast him as Geronimo. Wow, hollywood head, no shame that is the caucasity.

Speaker 2: 50:03

Yeah, the caucasity of that.

Speaker 3: 50:05

So I don't have a role model Right, except for the guys who were real, like Bass Reeves, beckworth, the bronze bookaroo in the 40s. My mom used to talk about that movie the Bronze Bookaroo in the 40s. My mom used to talk about that movie. We had Sidney Poitier and Harry Belafonte in Buck and the Preacher. We had Melvin Van Peebles in Mario Mario's the son, mario Van Peebles in what was the name of that movie? You know which one? I'm talking about that one. What was the name of that movie? You know which one? I'm talking about that one. But so far as real kinds of you know, you can count them on one hand. So when I think of cowboys I think about mine, who were in places like Texas, who were enslaved originally because, you know, cattle raising was part of the African experience in a lot of places and they were imported specifically because of that skill. Yeah, a lot of the original ranchers didn't know nothing about cows, just stealing land.

Speaker 3: 51:32

That's what it called cowboys. You know the white guys would call cow hands. You know so. So you know it's a complicated history here, but you know our roots are deep and wide and strong, and so versatile. Oh yeah, oh yeah. I mean, we taught them cows, we taught them how to grow rice, we taught them how to plant indigo, we taught them the intricacies of inoculation, yeah, and metallurgy as well, oh yeah of inoculation yeah, you know so.

Speaker 2: 52:08

And metallurgy as well.

Speaker 3: 52:09

Oh yeah, Look in New Orleans.

Speaker 2: 52:11

Right, look in New Orleans. Exactly Right, yeah, exactly yeah. This is apropos of nothing and you don't actually have to have a POV. Okay, but Beyonce has a country album.

Speaker 3: 52:22

Yeah, what are your thoughts? I put up Tame of Jesse Rose. I said if you need a soundtrack or a book to go with the soundtrack Cowboy Carter, here's a book for you. It's a rootin' tootin' black western?

Speaker 1: 52:38

Yes, it is.

Speaker 3: 52:40

Everything is a marketing moment we're having. We're celebrating the 25th anniversary of jesse rose at the pajama party this year in october, okay, and so we're having a, a western theme, and we're having the jesse rose ball on saturday night, so it'll be boots and gowns and boots and hats. And I had told her I originally told her I said we will not be playing. This was before Beyonce's. I said we will not be playing country music, but I think we will be. I think we will be playing Beyonce at the Jesse Rose Bowl.

Speaker 1: 53:20

That's going to be amazing.

Speaker 3: 53:23

Yeah, we're going to have a good time. So you know, and other people are saying that she, you know, doesn't know anything about she grew up in houston exactly. She knows what I was, you know they got their own culture down there, so I was just from houston and rodeo culture yeah, rodeo culture was just it.

Speaker 2: 53:38

You know it took over the entire city. Yeah, it was. You could just pull up to a gas station and someone in a horse would be just like also stopping to get their 7-Eleven Slurpee. It's just, it's that type of city.

Speaker 1: 53:50

Yeah, yeah, I'm not even from Houston and I know that you, that's where artists get started, that's where you play your, your gigs, and at the rodeo. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, so, yeah, so yeah, she's doing well she really is miss, so let's talk about mustaches because they're back in and we feel like you're somehow responsible for it well, you know, I think it's really.

Speaker 3: 54:21

Who was it that brought it up first online? Oh, I don't know her real name. Be in her, her book. She's a librarian. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think she started the conversation, I think, and then I told her you know, growing up in the 60s, you know you can ask your moms or your grandmas or your aunties or whatever Women my age we were in the teens and 20s you did not trust a black man without a mustache. This is real. If he had a hairless lip, you were like ew. So if you look back at the pictures and you know, in the movies and the black exploitation movies and all that, everybody had a mustache because you did not hook up Mess with a man with a naked lip.

Speaker 3: 55:09

With a naked lip. I mean all the boys growing up, that was their I can grow a mustache. You know, that was their rite of passage was to be able to grow a mustache, yeah, so yeah, men out here just trying to get a beard. Exactly, exactly, exactly. Yeah, I think my trauma, trying to get a beard, exactly. Exactly, exactly yeah.

Speaker 1: 55:29

I think my trauma comes from. I mean, my dad had a mustache and he was very proud of that mustache. It was a very full mustache and he didn't have a lot of hair up top. That mustache was pristine, yeah.

Speaker 3: 55:41

Yeah, I mean, and that's all the cultures, all the cultures of color. Yeah, you know, the men had mustaches.

Speaker 2: 55:47

So the thing is I just associate mustaches, like for some reason you can't have both a mustache and a shirt Literally either, or Like when you think of, like Tom Selleck, like when he had that mustache on that shirt, was that was a deep V, baby yeah. You could see that navel.

Speaker 3: 56:06

Yeah, it's either or yeah, well, when you're 14 and in the ninth grade you got your shirt on you in school, or polyester, like it's a very polyester forward look right, yeah, yeah, so I. So I don't think I can take credit or blame for that, but I do will tell you that we did not trust a boy or a man or anybody in college who did not have a mustache.

Speaker 2: 56:40

Honestly, let's bring that back Like, let's just be real suspect about dudes. You just can't. I'm sorry, Sarah, what are you about? If you had a mustache we could talk to you. Let's just be real suspect about dudes.

Speaker 3: 56:50

You just can't know. I'm sorry, sarah. What are you about? Yeah, if you had a mustache we could talk, you know. It's like Sade's song, maureen, you see this. You look at it. You think he can dance, you know. So you know.

Speaker 1: 57:03

Can he?

Speaker 3: 57:04

dance, you know so.

Speaker 1: 57:06

I think we need to bring that filter back. Just like mustache no mustache as it's like just a sign of can I trust this person?

Speaker 2: 57:15

can I?

Speaker 3: 57:16

trust him with my heart or anything else. It's like we'll see.

Speaker 1: 57:23

Stay tuned, stay tuned thank you so much for just gifting us, blessing us with this amazing conversation. It's made our my sense of somehow. I mean I don't know how many times I've read forbidden and topaz, I mean it's many and and every time I talk to you or hear you talking about those books I learn something new and it makes the books even richer for me. So, thank you, we appreciate you so much.

Speaker 3: 57:55

Well, thank you for having me. Much success with this podcast and, you know, have me back whenever you need to laugh. I'm always available.

Speaker 1: 58:07

I mean if you're looking for an extra gig, if you're not missing like we'll just have you every time.

Speaker 3: 58:14

People be like oh, she on again. No, we ain't listening to them. No, we love it.

Speaker 2: 58:18

This is a fantastic kiki.

Speaker 3: 58:22

But I will look forward to seeing you all in August at Lusty Con. Yes, I love it.

Speaker 1: 58:31

All right, have a great evening. Thank you so much. Okay, all right, love you. Love you, ms Bev. We're back on Unbound and in this final act we're going deep into the legacy and impact of Beverly Jenkins reimagining of the western genre. How does Jenkins not only rewrite the narrative but also inspire us to see through a new, more inclusive lens?

Speaker 2: 59:04

I think I want to start off talking a little bit about her sense of community. So through her novels, Jenkins presents a West that's different from the one traditionally portrayed in mainstream media. It's a genre that largely celebrates rugged individualism. You think of Clint Eastwood or John Wayne. These are all people who are set out on their own.

Speaker 3: 59:27

You can call me a dirty son of a bitch, but if you ever call me daddy again, I'll finish this fight.

Speaker 2: 59:33

But Jenkins emphasizes community, collective struggle and mutual support. Her characters often find strength not in isolation, not in hiding behind a rock while other people shoot out at them by themselves and they like shoot out 50 people and it's just them but they find strength in their connection to other people. It's not this West of Lone Rangers and again these big saloon shootouts, but there's such a huge focus on community in her novels and if you think about Nevada City, the saloon becomes a community, the wagon women that are on the trail. They become community members and masters even of their own destiny.

Speaker 1: 1:00:16

Okay, but also in Beverly Jenkins's books the struggle for justice is really a central part of the storytelling. Even in Topaz, anytime Dix is enforcing the law or going in to be the person that enacts justice, he is doing it to protect the vulnerable. So, just on the face of it, justice looks very different in Jenkins West than in our traditional Western story, because it really isn't about bringing order, law and order to the town. It is really about protecting the vulnerable. It's not about. It's about safety, not about control and seeking safety, as justice really is a theme in her work. Jenkins' work also invites us to reflect on the concept of Black safety and what it means to find a haven in a world that often feels hostile. It's part of what we were talking about in our initial episode about Buck and the Preacher. Her characters' journeys westward are not just physical movement but quests for places where characters can express their identities fully and freely.

Speaker 2: 1:01:44

Jenkins not only enriches the genre, but a lot of the points of reference in Beverly Jenkins' book are real history, right, and so this is Adriana, let me play devil's advocate. So what that they're real history? So what that they're a black lawman in black cities, right? What does it mean for us today? Right, we still don't have all of our rights, right, I still can't breathe. Why does this matter? Why is it even important that we revisit these narratives?

Speaker 1: 1:02:13

I mean for one what you just mentioned Right, I have always said that one of my biggest teachers of American life, african-american life, is Beverly Jenkins. Because I was, I was able to read about real African-American history, knowing there would be a happy ending, and that romance as a genre is at its essence aspirational. It's the genre of hope For Black and Brown people. An HEA is never individualistic. We thrive if the collective thrives. And these stories, our stories, can just be about joy. It can be about love. It can be us building worlds that keep us emotionally and physically safe. It's Wakanda, with Boots's first.

Speaker 2: 1:03:04

As we close this episode, let's take a moment to just appreciate the trails that Beverly Jenkins lays. She shows us that the heroes of the West were as diverse as America itself and that their stories are real, important and powerful. Thank you for joining us on this journey through Beverly Jenkins' work, and sometimes, to find the truth you need to read, with love Coming up. We're diving into a special interstitial by none other than Netflix's Bridgerton's Queen Charlotte. And hold on to your hats because we've also got an episode coming up that asks the provocative question is romance political? We'll unpack the power dynamics, the societal shifts and, yes, all the bullshit. It's about to get real, folks.

Speaker 1: 1:03:44

Thank you for tuning in today. If you love what you heard, don't forget to subscribe, leave us a review and share this podcast with your friends. Your support helps us keep bringing these stories to life and, trust me, there's plenty of more where that came from. Find us all on major podcast platforms and follows on TikTok, youtube and Instagram for updates and behind the scenes content. Until next time, keep your hearts unbound.